Spring Box Troubleshooting & Repair


Troubleshoot or repair a spring box
to protect the sanitation of spring water

Spring Water Supply Troubleshooting

Question: we just installed a spring but we're not getting water

Photo 1: the spring site after digging out a hole and dumping in some gravel. .

I have a cabin in northwest PA. This cabin is in the Allegheny mountain area. We just put in a spring with some Amish help.

Per their suggestion we obtained a road sluce 4ft diameter x 6ft. The spring had a slow seep coming from the ground & hill side. We dug down into the spring about 3-4 ft and opened it up to hold our 48 inch sluce.

We put in about 15 in of gravel then put sluce in. The spring has been in place about 4 days.

Photo 2 above: water seeping into gravel in the bottom of the newly-constructed spring.

I expected the sluce to be filled and running out the overflow, which is not the case we have about 17 inches of water in the sluce about 40 gallons of my calculation is correct. Why wouldn't the sluce be filled and running out the over flow.

It seems to be staying at this 17 inches of water level.

Photo 3: the "finished" spring with a cover in place.

Spring is 40 ft above cabin and gravity flow. What kind of setup would you recommend by the cabin. Storage tank, pump, etc, to introduce water to the cabin.

Photo 4 above is a still clipped from this

VIDEO of WATER PROVIDED FROM SPRING [mp4] - Anonymous by private email 2023/10/26

Moderator reply: delay in water fill at new dug out spring box

Perhaps your plastic culvert material used to surround your spring is actually blocking springwater from entering its interior - which can happen if the water flow source is above the bottom of the hole into which you set the liner. 

Or it may be simply that you need some time for the springwater source to find its way to your spring box.

The longer water runs through the surrounding soil and into your spring box or reservoir the more the water passage will open up. At least initially this should increase the spring's flow rate into your reservoir.

We'll need to see how this new spring performs over various seasons and in time ahead if your supplying aquifer is affected by climate changes.

Reader follow-up: spring seems enough for our needs

Once we ran a test it seems Spring will be enough for our needs.

We will have to put a Storage tank below by the cabin which should give us plenty of water.

Actually we ran a test and finding were:

Test results started at 1:44 pm spring was at 1 foot 6 inches, filled white tank to 138 gallons at 2:57 pm stop filling.

At 3:27 7 inches at 3:48 7.5 inches at 4:09 8 inches

So with that said looks like sluce quits filling at 18 inches.

Moderator reply: add large water storage tank if needed for slow-flowing spring

Thanks for the update; it sounds as if this is a typical case for using a larger water storage tank that can be filled slowly and that can provide water for surges in use rate. In our cabin (where I'm living at present) we have a small pump that delivers water at pressure from a plastic water storage tank that we re-fill on occasion. 

Reader follow-up: spring worked out perfect

Spring has worked out perfect. Supplies our cabin with all the water we can use.  Currently we just have an outside spicket and an outdoor shower and hot water heater connected to it.

This Spring will actually bring the water supply into the house.

We have plenty of pressure with the down hill run. We will now have to design some type of configuration for getting water into the cabin.

This may be a holding tank, filter and demand pump. The water coming from the spring is crystal clear. - Anon, 2023/12/05

Moderator reply: test spring water for potability & consider a pressure booster pump

Glad to hear you've got a good water supply.

I don't know what sort of electrical power you have at the cabin: line voltage, solar, battery, or generator. For a small installation such as a completely self-contained water system we installed in a home, we used a small pressure-sensitive transfer pump designed for water delivery. These are available in various voltages and pumping capacities.

That pump doesn't require a water pressure tank or other types contain their own small pressure regulating reservoir.

We describe some water pressure pump options including some small solar powered water pumps at

• WATER PUMP TYPES

For larger buildings and where 120V is available this tankless water pump other readers may want to see this

• GRUNDFOS SCALA 2 PUMP GUIDE 

that can provide water for an entire building and has good lift capacity.

Watch out: also be sure that the cover you put over that spring "box" (culvert material) is secure, keeps out animals and debris, and that it is child safe.

Watch out: while your spring water may look crystal clear, for safety we recommend that you have it tested for potability - at least for bacteria or coliform.

Watch out: If that were my water supply, I'd want to be sure that the plastic culvert material you used (probably PVC) is not a material that can leach harmful chemicals into the water supply. Remember that drainage culvert plastics are intended to conduct surface drainage or runoff and the culvert is not necessarily formulated to assure safe drinking water.

Identify the specific culvert product you used, find its product specifications, identify at least the kind of plastic of which it's made, and then we can research the health effects or contaminants question.

Effect of PVC Culverts on Water Potability or Chemistry or Safety

• Ackerman, Frank, and Rachel Massey. THE ECONOMICS of PHASING OUT PVC [PDF] (2003)  Global Development and Environment Institute (GDAE), Tufts University (2003). - retrieved 2023/12/07, origianal source: frankackerman.com/publications/costbenefit/Economics_Phasing_Out_PVC.pdf
  
  Excerpt from Executive Summary:
  
  PVC poses hazards to human health over the course of its life cycle. PVC production exposes workers and communities to vinyl chloride and other toxic substances. PVC products such as medical equipment and childrenUs toys can leach toxic additives during their useful life.
• Al-Malack, Muhammad H. "Migration of lead from unplasticized polyvinyl chloride pipes." Journal of hazardous materials 82, no. 3 (2001): 263-274.
• Heim, Timothy H., and Andrea M. Dietrich. SENSORY ASPECTS AND WATER QUALITY IMPACTS OF CHLORINATED AND CHLORAMINATED DRINKING WATER IN CONTACT WITH HDPE AND CPVC PIPE [PDF] (2007) Water research 41, no. 4 (2007): 757-764. - retrieved 2023/12/07, original source: sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0043135406006713
  Abstract:
  
  Pipes constructed with high-density polyethylene (HDPE) or chlorinated  polyvinyl chloride  (cPVC) are commonly used in  drinking water  distribution systems and premise plumbing. In this comprehensive investigation, the effects on odor, organic chemical release, trihalomethane (THM) formation, free chlorine demand and monochloramine demand were determined for water exposed to HDPE and cPVC pipes.
  
  The study was conducted in accordance with the Utility Quick Test (UQT), a migration/leaching protocol for analysis of materials in contact with drinking water. The sensory panel consistently attributed a weak to moderate intensity of a “waxy/plastic/citrus” odor to the water from the HDPE pipes but not the cPVC-contacted water samples.
  
  The odor intensity generated by the HDPE pipe remained relatively constant for multiple water flushes, and the odor descriptors were affected by disinfectant type.
  
  Water samples stored in both types of pipe showed a significant increase in the  leaching of organic compounds when compared to glass controls, with HDPE producing 0.14 μg TOC/cm2 pipe surface, which was significantly greater than the  TOC release from cPVC.
  
  Water stored in both types of pipe showed disinfectant demands of 0.1–0.9 μg disinfectant/cm2 pipe surface, with HDPE exerting more demand than cPVC. No THMs were detected in chlorinated water exposed to the pipes.
  
  The results demonstrate the impact that synthetic plumbing materials can have on sensory and chemical water quality, as well as the significant variations in  drinking water quality  generated from different materials.
• Nikiema, Josiane, Javier Mateo-Sagasta, Zipporah Asiedu, Dalia Saad, and Birguy Lamizana. "Water pollution by plastics and microplastics: a review of technical solutions from source to sea." (2020).
  
  Excerpt:
  The lowest microplastic concentrations were measured in ponds that collected stormwater from highways and residential areas, while the highest were associated with industrial and commercial areas. Key plastic polymers included PVC (in the case of larger microplastics), PP, PE, PET and PS.
• Whelton, Andrew J., Kyungyeon Ra, Seyedeh Mahboobeh Teimouri Sendesi, Md Nuruddin, Xianzhen Li, John A. Howarter, Jeffrey P. Youngblood, Chad T. Jafvert, and Nadezhda N. Zyaykina. "Contaminant Release from Storm Water Culvert Rehabilitation Technologies: Understanding Implications to the Environment and Long-Term Material Integrity." (2019).

More water test advice is at

• WATER QUALITY TEST CHOICES & WATER TEST FEES 

Spring Box Repair Recommendations

Case 1: Proper Water Spring Box Design: how do I fix up a leaky spring box - walls are cracked & leaking

I would like to see if you have any ideas for my spring. I purchased this property last year. While I was deployed to Afghanistan my wife dug out a portion of the spring; approximately 4 feet deep.

She then filled it up with rock. Then she put a 2 inch pipe with numerous holes drilled into it.

Ran a pvc pipe to the house with a shut off valve. The spring box is constructed of 4 inch concrete walls. I'm not sure the depth of the walls.

The [surrounding spring] walls are in disrepair.

One wall had already cracked which may be caused by the pressure from the ground. Another wall has a leak which has filled an area in front of the spring box full of water creating a little pond.

Two weeks ago I dug down about 18 inches to find the leak. I thought I found it and used some hydraulic cement to patch it up. It is still leaking in the same area.

My initial thoughts were to put another concrete wall up just inside the other one. Go down about 4 feet and tie into the other wall with some rebar.

Do you have any suggestions that may be more effective?

I have a few short videos if that would help. - A.S. 6/15/2013

Reply: A Properly Built Spring Box is Important for Protecting the Potability of Spring water.

A.S., please first review SPRING BOX CONSTRUCTION SPECIFICATIONS - since the details of good initial construction of a spring water protection cover will help you decide how far to go in fixing the leaks in your spring surround.

Then continue reading below where we discuss approaches to patching a leaky spring box.

With regard to digging out the spring and using rock:

Digging out a spring can improve the water quality by giving space for debris settlement; it can, depending on design, also give a larger water drawdown reservoir if the spring water is to be delivered by pump; but in general it won't increase the absolute water yield quantity from the spring itself. 

Digging out a spring, to the extent that it removes leaves and debris, is also important for water quality.

Watch out: unless sanitary spring water is reaching the ground surface and unless the spring water is protected from other contaminants, it will not be possible to assure that spring water is always sanitary and thus safe to drink. In such situations you'll want either a water sanitizing treatment system or at the very least, regular water testing for potability. Read more at

SPRING BOX CONSTRUCTION SPECIFICATIONS

OPINION: I'd have preferred a larger water reservoir that could be cleaned; the rocks mean debris settles through the rock and can't be cleaned without taking out the rock.

IF the rock was put into a spring to try to keep it "open" a better approach would be a surrounding concrete wall.

With regard to the pipe connection to the house and leak repair:

OPINION: makes perfect sense, though still we'd want a water reservoir to improve drawdown rate in times of demand, and see my caveat above about spring water potability.

Watch out:  a spring box that leaks water "out" may catch your attention because of the reduction in water supply, but a still greater risk is that surface contaminants can leak into the spring water. For both reasons, I agree that you need a spring box whose walls and top cover do not leak into the spring.

Surrounding a spring with watertight walls is a good way to reduce surface runoff into the spring.

There are both cement and epoxy repairs that can work to fix a leaky concrete spring surrounding wall, though you'll want to choose a sealant that does not itself contaminate your drinking water - one rated for potable water containers.

With regard to cracks from frost heaves:

If the spring walls are cracking from frost heaves then they'd need to be removed and rebuilt with footings below the frost line.

Some springs in freezing climates deliver water year -round at a temperature and rate sufficient to prevent freeze-ups, others not.

Photo above: unprotected drinking water source from a spring, Jalpan, Queretaro, Mexico - Daniel Friedman

Cracks from frost heaving are typically vertical or diagonal or (if the surrounding wall is masonry block) stair-stepped;

Cracks from horizontal frost push against the spring box walls tend to be horizontal.

If your wall damage was from horizontal push you might reduce that problem by burying solid foam insulation against the outside of the spring walls + improving surface drainage around the spring box.

With regard to the leaking patch:

Sounds as if your patch is leaking, or there is another leak, or the water supply itself has dropped. Just putting up another wall outside the existing one sounds a bit "Rube Goldberg" or "makeshift" to me. I'd want first to get an accurate diagnosis of the problem.

OPINION: while lots of us grew up drinking spring water. (I did, in Dunnsville VA), because spring water. is no longer reliably sanitary in many areas, and more, if your water quantity and flow rate may be inadequate, I'd keep the investment in the spring to a minimum of time and money.

Ultimately you may need a more costly sanitary well drilled to provide a reliable potable water supply.

Case 2: what to use to patch a leaky spring water. container, liner, or leaky masonry

I have a hand dug and stone and cement spring at my camp which isn't holding water very well.

I want to patch the inside with something that can stay wet and won't be toxic, any ideas? - D.H. 4/3/2013

Leo said: My well is 15' deep, with a cement-wall surround of about 3' x 10'. There is a large crack in one corner which is settling. Can you recommend a non-toxic cement to repair the crack please. - 2018/05/27, posted originally

at HAND DUG WELL PROCEDURE

Reply: approaches to sealing a spring box, hand dug well liner, or other container intended to contain potable water

D.H. and Leo:

1. Hydraulic cement,
   
   high in portland content, is compatible and as it's essentially the same as what you've already got - concrete - about the same in toxicity.
   
   But if the cracks and leaks are because the concrete structure you built to contain spring water. is tipping, bending, breaking, leaks will probably recur until you fix the underlying support.
2. Silicone sealants & aquarium sealers:
   
   an alternative that is surely not toxic would be to try a silicone or similar sealant sold for use in constructing an aquarium.
   
   If we have a product that doesn't kill the fish that's a good sign.
   
   As you will see from our clip of advertisements for aquarium sealers in our photo above, these are generally silicone sealant products sold by Ag, DAP, DOW, Marineland, Perfecto, and other manufacturers. [Click any InspectApedia.com image to see an enlarged detailed version.]
   
   To use an aquarium sealer or other non-toxic silicone sealant the surface will need to be clean and dry and you'll need to be able to keep it dry until the silicone sealant cures. Typically that's at least 24 hours.
3. Swimming pool patch compounds:
   
   an alternative
   
   Watch out: for which you'd need to read the MSDS but that might work well would be swimming pool patching compounds. Some of these products have the advantage of working when applied under water.
4. Other caulks & sealants:
   
   Really? I am hesitant to recommend some of the excellent caulks and sealants without checking the caulk's chemistry.
   
   But in general, the most toxic chemical in some caulks would be mineral spirits (possibly a source of benzene, a carcinogen, for example).

Acrylic / latex caulks, do not contain mineral spirits but our research indicates that it would usually be more accurate to call these products "low toxicity caulks and sealants" rather than "non-toxic". Nothing, not even water, is completely "non-toxic".

For example, DAP's Acrylic Latex Caulk is such a product, and is available in versions that include or exclude silicone. Silicone, itself rather inert when cured, is key in making a caulk waterproof.

• See CAULKS, NONTOXIC for details about choosing a non-toxic or at least low toxicity caulk or sealant.
• See CAULKS & SEALANTS, EXTERIOR for details about selecting and using these products

Watch out: surface preparation is also key to a successful caulk or seal job. Be sure that the areas around the cracks or sealants you are using are clean and if the sealant requires, also dry and at a suitable temperature.

Watch out: leaks in a spring box or dug well masonry liner such as walls made of concrete or cement and stone may be due to movement caused by earth pressure, frost, or settlement. If the causes of the movement are not identified and fixed, just patching a crack or leak is not likely to be a long-lasting repair.

Case 3: Repair options for a broken up spring box

How can we make this spring box usable?

I’ve been reading information on your web page about springs and wondered if you might have some insight into this spring situation. It’s a spring in upstate New York on property I just purchased. It’s basically going to be a place to camp, but it would be wonderful to be able to access this water.

The water bubbles up from a seep , and runs down to feed pond below. I can see where it bubbles up from and I’ve built a temporary dam around it to determine how much water it gets.

It’s not as full now as this image is taken in early spring. I do not know how much water it produces during drought times.

But currently (July 2023) it’s about a gallon a minute. The run off to the pond is completely choked up now and  very little of the spring water actually makes it to the pond.

Should the springs path that runs to the pond be cleared ?

Or should it just be allowed to grow over with plants naturally?

Can I create a small dam within the s structure that is already in place ( falling/ apart) with concrete blocks, without taking out the old box?

Would building a catchment wall with clay and rocks be a more natural alternative. Simple solutions? Ideas.?  - Anonymous by private email 2023/07/03

Moderator reply: simple option for restoring a spring and routing its water to a pond

Just how much work you do to clean out, restore, and protect that broken-up spring box depends on what use you want or need to make of the spring water. I infer from your question that you'd like to simply get the spring water down to a pond on the same property.

Some of the spring restoration articles we cite at this page point out that a less costly spring restoration alternative to a new or repaired spring box is to simply clean out the spring source and build a protected channel that allows spring water to flow downhill to a destination such as the pond that you mention. (Hart 2003).

You would

1. Dig out the spring eye
   
   (probably centered in the remains of the concrete structure in your photo) sufficiently to remove accumulated debris and to improve its flow rate.
2. Protect the spring eye
   
   from washing-in leaves and debris, perhaps adding a stone wall surround and headwall.
   
   Excerpting from Skinner & Shaw cited below,
   
   The spring eye at the head of the trench should be surrounded with clean stones through which water can flow into the trench. Stones of between 10 and 40mm diameter are usually suitable for this, but larger ones can be used.
   
   A layer of stones about 100mm deep will usually suffice, and this should then be covered with a layer of rocks and a layer of 'puddled clay' about 100mm deep.
   
   This clay is prepared by wetting and kneading it underfoot until it is uniformly plastic. Its purpose is to prevent surface water and grains of backfill material from entering the stone-filled channel.

Illustrated above: using a pipe to conduct spring water to a small pond - excerpted from Skinner and Shaw cited in detail below.

3. Clear and line a small stream path down-hill
   
   from the spring to its destination to route a drainage ditch or to bury a PVC pipe.
   
   Here are excerpts from Hart's 2003 treatise that we cite and offer as a free PDF download on this page:
   
   Spring boxes aren't the only method of protecting spring water sources. There are alternative structures that may suit the needs of the community better than a spring box.
   
   For example, if the distance from the spring eye to the primary distribution point isn't great, a stone-filled trench and headwall may be a preferable method of spring water protection.
   ...
   The basic design of a stone-filled trench and headwall is to dig a trench from the distribution point to the spring eye. The trench should have a fairly impervious bottom to minimize water loss to infiltration. Two options exist for transporting water from the eye to the distribution point,
   
   the first is to simply fill the trench with clean stones and a layer of puddled clay approximately 100 mm thick over the stones in order to prevent surface water from infiltrating and contaminating the source.
   
   The second option is to pile clean stones over the eye, protect the source with a layer of puddled clay, and use a plastic pipe to convey water from the source to the distribution point. This method has several advantages over the stone-filled trench.
   
   First, if the topography allows, the pipe can be situated so that the outlet is above ground, eliminating the need to construct a large headwall. If this method is used, it is necessary to protect the above ground portion of the plastic pipe with a short length of steel pipe.
   
   With either method, a concrete headwall will need to be constructed at the outlet with a concrete apron below the outlet pipe to provide easy access and to prevent erosion.
   
   Hart describes a second option, developing a horizontal well that is more useful at a steeply-sloped cite that from your photos we think is not your case.

For the situation you describe, the simplest and most-effective way to restore that spring to feed a pond down-slope on the property would be to add large stones to form a wall to protect the remains of the existing spring box from sticks and debris that otherwise wash down into the opening at the up-slope and broken spring box wall, then clean out the spring and build just enough of a headwall to feed a 4" or 6" pvc pipe that brings groundwater down to the pond below.

In my view, though some minor digging is needed so that we don't have an ugly plastic pipe on the surface of the slope down to the pond, that's less cost and less work than building a stone-lined ditch down to the pond. But you may prefer the ditch, perhaps lined with a waterproof membrane and then sufficiently-large stones as to stay in place.

The ditch or trench option will require periodic maintenance to clean out sticks and leaves.

Case 4: Spring Box with Center Concrete "Cistern" by a Pond

2021/07/11, Anonymous: standing spring box with round concrete-covered center "cistern"

I found you email on a blog about springhouses and you seem to be very versed on the subject so I thought I'd shoot you an email to pick your brain

Recently we purchased a property with a standing spring box on it. We were told by the prior owner that at one point the water was sold for bottling (we have not tested it as of yet).

Anyways we'd like to cover it up by building a spring house over it but are kind of at a standstill for ideas. We also have no idea what the circular thing is with the lid on it in the middle of it. A cistern? a filter?

It is a rather large spring box approximately 6ft wide x 8ft long and about 4ft deep.

We would like to add more sand to the bottom and make it look cleaner.

We have been cleaning out the sticks and debris and using it for icy dip bathes after workouts. Any ideas, help or otherwise old world-y knowledge would be much appreciated. - Anonymous by private email - 2021-07-10

Moderator reply: Identify the round concrete-cover and construction in the middle of this concrete spring-box

Far more thorough and detailed advice on using spring water, building a spring-box, protecting the water, testing it, etc. than I can type anew, off-the-cuff, here, are organized beginning at

SPRING BOX CONSTRUCTION

Please take a look at that material, and don't hesitate to ask any specific follow-up questions as you may need.

Watch out: about water quality and safety from springs, you'll also want to read the other Recommended Articles at the end of that page, such as the caveats for

SPRINGS as WATER SUPPLY

About that round center manhole type cover in the center of your springbox, it's not a construction with which I'm familiar. I would open the cover and look inside - it may be a construction designed to allow water into the springbox from deeper soils, or ... something else.

Does the pond feed your spring box or is a spring feeding the pond?

Your photos show surface runoff running into the spring box but also that it is right next to a pond.

The fact that your "spring box" is immediately next to a pond suggests that the water inside the "spring box" is either receiving water from the pond - in which case it is certainly not sanitary as the pond is getting surface runoff from the surrounding area - the pond feeds the spring.

or

the spring-box could in fact be built over and around an actual spring-fed water source that sends water into the spring water out from the source and into the pond - the spring feeds the pond.

If it's there to permit groundwater from the spring to enter the spring box, it will be deeper than the box shown in your photo and will have perforations that allow water to rise up through it into the spring box.

Someone might build that (this is speculation) to permit deeper (supposedly better) water to enter the spring box while at the same time preventing unsanitary surface runoff from entering the enclosure.

When you open the lid, take more photos to show us what you see and we can comment further.

Watch out: for safety, never work alone around pits or holes into which you could fall.

2023-09/18 Reader Update: Repaired Spring Box by a Pond

In July of 2021 I contacted you about a larger spring box and a round structure inside. You posted the pic on the blog. Well, its been 2 years and we have manged to cover the box and just a few days ago made it into a functioning structure again.

Here is a picture (above with worker inside) of how deep the springbox is once it was pumped down and one of how it looks when its closed.

Attached is the cover made with an all aluminum frame and recycled Lexon glass salvaged from a school. It has hydrolic lift arms and locks to keep it open to maintain the springbox. The next pic is it installed in 2022.

Photos (above and below) show the box after it was pumped out, holes patched and new outlet pipe was drilled.

The final picture is after the walls were pressure washed and all the debris was skimmed out as best we could.

It was no small task removing the water. A lil trial and error and one last kick at the cat put us with a 3 inch trash pump that made short work against Mother nature.

As the water level dropped several holes where previous outlets had been drilled were revealed.

These outlets were patched using backwoods enginuity and not limited to; a tennis ball, shop rags and a golf ball wrapped in shrink wrap to stop the flow of water so hydrolic cement could set.

We were unable to determine exactly what the round concrete is inside the springbox. The cover is so heavy and the angle where it is located is too steep to safely get heavy equipment in. Our best guess is a cistern that at one point fed the house with water.

As of now we have not had the water tested for safe drinking. We will have it tested out of curiosity and not necessarily that we want to drink it.

I have to say, the journey to get it back to functioning wasn't easy, it was a real head scratcher but the end result has been so worth it. - Anonymous by private email 2023/09/18

Moderator Reply: possible role of center concrete cistern in spring box, and which way is water flowing: spring to pond or pond to spring?

Thank you so much for this update - Indeed this is a really nice project and I have added it to what we had before - for you and other readers to comment.

How did you attach the salvaged Lexan clear plastic glazing to the spring box cover frame? Two sided foam tape?

The holes that you report finding in the spring box wall, presumably on the "pond" side suggest that it was intended to both collect water from a spring source and to feed water into the adjacent pond, while perhaps reducing backflow of less-clean water from the pond into the box.

That round concrete cover atop what looks like a fired clay well ring might indeed indicate a cistern but it's a bit odd to build a cistern inside of an existing enclosure.

Possibly it is actually protecting a more deeply excavated hole intended to feed water into the spring. If that is the case, cleaning out that inner chamber may increase springwater flow into the springwater collection "box".

I'd be surprised that we'd need heavy equipment like a backhoe simply to remove that cover. Usually two people can lift a round concrete cover over a spring source or manhole by sliding an iron bar under the raised handle and using a lift person on either side - but indeed I agree that it's not worth a hernia if tried alone. - Mod. 2023/9/18