Internal bladder type water pressure tank troubleshooting:
This article describes the diagnosis and repair of internal bladder type water pressure tanks: how they work, what goes wrong, how to fix it.
We explain how internal bladder type water pressure tanks work, what goes wrong, how to diagnose the trouble, and how to repair it.
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If you remove the cap from the air valve on the top of your water tank and momentarily depress the pin in the center of the schrader valve, normally air will hiss out.
Watch out: Don't keep holding this valve pin down or you'll lose the air charge.
At WellMate Diagnosis we provide separate water tank diagnosis and repair advice for captive-air water tanks in which the air is in the bladder and the water is outside the bladder in the water tank.
Thanks to Jeff Garmel for suggesting text clarification in this discussion of water pressure tank diagnosis.
It is possible for an internal-bladder type water pressure tank to behave improperly due to a small leak between the water-containing bladder and the air space inside the pressure tank.
While a completely-burst tank bladder (described above) quickly or immediately converts the pressure tank to one acting like a tank with no bladder at all, a very small leak, even a pinhole leak in the tank bladder acts differently.
Photo at left, provided by reader D.S., illustrates slow water leakage out of the air valve of an internal-bladder water pressure tank that has been removed due to a pinhole leak in the water bladder.
A small or pinhole leak in the water tank bladder will send water "one way" from the tank bladder into the water tank's air space.
The diagnostic clues you will see in this case include
Be sure to review
WATER TANK BLADDER PRESSURE ADJUSTMENT
if you are adjusting, tuning, or replacing the air pressure in your bladder-type well tank.
Details about how to repair or replaced a water tank bladder are
at WATER TANK BLADDER REPLACEMENT.
Our sketch at left, courtesy of Well-Rite water pressure tanks [Flexcon Industries] [2] Illustrates how air in the upper portion of the tank compresses water in the flexible tank bladder, acting as a spring to push water into the building water supply piping system during the draw-down cycle.
You'll note that at the end of the 40/60 psi draw-down cycle illustrated, the volume of water in the tank is nearly zero.
Fixing or getting rid of a waterlogged collapsed-bladder water tank:
as we mentioned above, it's also possible that the torn bladder will stick to the water outlet opening, blocking water from leaving the water tank. The result will be short cycling of the water pump.
We discuss water pump short cycling at WATER TANK REPAIRS. In any case the drawdown volume will be reduced and it's likely that this misused water tank will rust through soon.
Water tank bladder replacement:
on some water pressure tanks, the water tank can be disassembled and the bladder replaced. You might want to ask your plumber to try this repair before replacing the entire water tank assembly.
Bladder replacement will involve draining water from the system and removing the water tank pretty much as if the whole tank were to be replaced. Suppliers such as Wessels offer replacement bladders for some models of expansion tanks and hydropneumatic tanks. In general, if you're going to hire a plumber to do this job, we recommend replacing the whole tank.
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Below you will find questions and answers previously posted on this page at its page bottom reader comment box.
On 2020-10-23 - by (mod) - will water tank still hold water with all pipes removed?
If there is air in the pressure tank that should be enough to push all of the water out of the bladder once the tank is disconnected;
If there's still water in the tank I suspect the bladder is ruptured.
On 2020-10-23 by Chrus
Should my bladder hold water after all pipes are removed
On 2020-07-02 - by (mod) - Bladders keep blowing out in my tank.
Ray
Make sure you have a working pressure gauge installed and then take a look at the pressure on the system. It's possible that you are over pressurizing the tank. Watch out that's dangerous.
On 2020-07-02 by Ray Whitman
Bladders keep blowing out in my tank. Replaced 3 in 6 months. What is the problem?
@Ray Whitman,
Raywhitman1@gmail.com
On 2020-07-02 - by (mod) - water tank air pre charge set to 2 psi below the CUT IN Pressure.
The tank air pre charge is set to 2 psi below the cut in Pressure.
Typically the pressure is set to 20 or 30 psi cut in and 40 or 50 psi cut out.
On 2020-07-02 by Larry
how much pressure should be on a 20 gal. horizantle holding tank well is 300ft deep under ground pump
On 2020-06-04 - by (mod) - Check the water pressure tank air pre-charge w
Jeff
Check the water pressure tank air pre-charge when there is no water pressure in the building and the pump is off. The pre-charge should be 2 psi below the pressure control CUT IN pressure setting.
On 2020-06-04 1 by Jeff
I installed a new holding tank and new switch and the tank is not filling up with water the way it should.
The holding tank is completely emptying before it fills with water; so I have to wait 10 minutes or so before I get water again. What do you think I should do? thanks, Jeff
sorry e-mail for Jeff is catbaker25@outlook.com
On 2019-04-08 by (mod) - Should water squirt out while checking my air pressure in tank
The answer depends on where you are air valve is located. If it's on the top of the water pressure tank and water squirts out then the tank is waterlogged and has lost its air charge.
On 2019-04-07 by Anonymous
Should water squirt out while checking my air pressure in tank
On 2018-10-31 by (mod) - water coming out of my bladder tank air input nossel.
Sorry to say, Bradley but that's probably right
On 2018-10-31 by Bradley Boam
I have water coming out of my bladder tank air input nossel. Is this because I have a hole in my bladder.??
On 2017-03-12 by (mod) - pressure tank is waterlogged
Cheri,
I agree that if water comes out of the air valve on the top of a water pressure tank, the tank is water-logged: has lost its air charge. Further, if your tank is a type that uses an internal bladder to keep air and water separated, then that bladder is torn or burst or perforated; in that case the bladder or the whole tank needs replacement.
You might want to use the search box just above to search InspectApedia for "Water Tank Bladder Problem Diagnosis & Repair" to see how to repair a burst or torn tank bladder.
On 2017-11-07 by (mod) - signs of a water-logged pressure tank: pressure falls off very quickly
Yes that sounds like a waterlogged pressure tank. If your tank uses an internal bladder than the bladder may have burst
On 2017-11-06 by Keith
I strong water pressure at the cold water storage tank but when turn on any faucet in the it starts out strong and gets slow could it be a bad bladder tank
On 2017-03-12 by cheri walker
HI, My pressure tank I believe is waterlogged. I was able to get up to 30 lbs of pressure but the switch fires rapidly after an adjustment attempt.
I cant seem to sync the cut in and off nuts. But I stopped trying because I believe it's a failed pressure tank. When I push the air inlet on top ofthe tank water comes out and that is all, Just Water. Is it a broken diaphram?
My pump cut in pressure is 35 psi. Couple yrs ago charged tank to 33 psi. Recently my pump started short cycling. I drained the tank. Air charge read 46 psi. Lowered back to 33 psi. A few days later tank pressure was back to 46 psi. What could cause this? I changed the filter. Water flow seams normal. - Kevin
Kevin: these are great water pump and tank mysteries, no?
First let's separate tank precharge pressure from the cut in and cut out pressures. The pre-charge pressure should not be so far above your cut-in pressure, so I wonder if you were really reading the pressure in the tank at the proper time. Take a look at tank pressure at the point that the pump cuts on or cuts in.
Take a look at the article link at the ARTICLE INDEX the bottom of this
article WATER TANK BLADDER PRESSURE ADJUSTMENT
More Rarely, a leaky well line can let air in that gets sent on into the pressure tank.
Take a look at SNIFTER & DRAIN BACK VALVES for an example of how a water tank air volume control system can pump excess air into the water pressure tank. Or see our more complete discussion
at AIR VOLUME CONTROLS, WATER TANK.
If you are seeing air discharge at your plumbing fixtures,
see AIR DISCHARGE at FAUCETS, FIXTURES
16 Sept 2015 Robert Ford said:
At WATER TANK AIR PRESSURE ADJUSTMENT
The statement:
Remove all water from the water tank. This means turn off the water pump, open a nearby plumbing fixture, run water until the water stops entirely - your water tank should be empty or close to empty.
Could be incorrect; If the bladder has failed and the tank becomes waterlogged (incorrect ration of air vs. water) you would only get a very small portion of the water to empty. If this was the case, one would need to force the rest of the water out via an air compressor.
Ideally, you would draw water until the pump starts. Ensure that all faucets are turned off.Once it pumps up to pressure, cut the electric to the pump and close the gate valve between the pump and tank. Open a faucet to begin draining the tank.
Attach an air line from compressor to the air snifter valve.
The compressor will then empty the contents of the tank. Once the last of the water empties it will begin to sputter (mixture of air and water). At this point, close the faucet and continue to add air until the proper pre-charge for the tank is met. This can be verified by a working pressure gauge or separate air gauge.
Next, turn on the pump and open the valve going to the tank. If the well is old, this should be opened slowly at first. If the pump begins cycling on and off very quickly continue to open the valve further until the pump stays running continuously. This will help ensure the pump does not lose it's prime
. If the system has a shut off valve between the tank and household lines it would be best to close this until the pump has full cycled and shut off.
You are right, Robert; in a typical bladder-type water pressure tank (not all tanks use an internal bladder) if the bladder has failed water may pass out of the bladder into the area in the tank intended for air. In that case draining the tank may be incomplete as the collapsing bladder can also block the tank drain.
But your repair procedure is not correct for that situation and it's unsafe.
Watch out: However for that situation the repair you suggest would be improper and possibly dangerous. If the bladder has collapsed onto the tank drain no safe amount of air pressure will empty the water in the tank and at higher pressures the tank can burst, injuring or even killing someone (this happened to a plumber in New Paltz NY).
If the internal bladder in a water pressure tank has burst the proper repair is to replace the bladder completely or to replace the entire water tank assembly.
See WATER TANK BLADDER REPLACEMENT at inspectapedia.com/water/Water_Tank_Bladder_Repair.php
Your comment is in an article on adjusting the air pressure in a working water pressure tank system.
To simply drain a water tank see WATER TANK DRAIN VALVE at inspectapedia.com/water/Water_Tank_Drain_Valve.php
WATER TANK AIR INLET VALVE - opening this valve can help in draining a water tank - inspectapedia.com/water/Water_Tank_Air_Valve.php
For a complete set of procedures for water tank diagnosis and repair pleas
e see WATER TANK: USES, TROUBLESHOOTING - home at inspectapedia.com/water/Water_Tanks.php
I appreciate your comments and will review our articles to be sure that these points are clear.
Regarding your reference to an "air snifter valve" - air snifter valves are NOT USED on water pressure tanks that use an internal bladder. In fact if such a valve is left installed on a system that was converted from a bladderless to an internal-bladder water pressure tank the system will not operate properly.
On a conversion to an internal bladder tank the snifter valve (normally present on well piping just ahead of the tank) and the corresponding snifter valve air inlet (located on well piping in the well) must be removed.
See SNIFTER & DRAIN BACK VALVES at inspectapedia.com/water/Snifter_Valve.php
However there is an air pressure adjustment valve (looks like a tire valve) atop water tanks that use an internal bladder.
See WATER TANK AIR INLET VALVE at inspectapedia.com/water/Water_Tank_Air_Valve.php for details.
Finally,
With water pressure tanks that use an internal bladder you should never see air discharge at the building's faucets. If you do there is a problem with the system that needs repair such as
- an air leak into the well piping
- an air leak at the pump itself
- a snifter valve and drainback valve that should have been removed when a bladder type tank replaced a bladderless water tank
- a ruptured water tank internal bladder
(Nov 11, 2014) Pete said:
Any suggestions on how I can drain my tank if the bladder has burst, and the tank is full of water, with the burst bladder sealing off the inlet/outlet.
Pete
Try opening the drain valve and then use a tire valve repair tool to remove the valve stem core in the air pressure adjustment fitting on the tank.
By allowing air into the tank at its top air valve and water out at the tank drain you may find success.
Or maybe not.
If this doesn't work then the bladder has collapsed on and covered the tank drain opening.
Some tanks can be tipped over to remove a bladder replacement a cess cover.
Else it's drag and drill time.
(May 4, 2015) B. Murdock said:
When power is on, the well comes on and of, on and off, can hear water start to come into the system.
Can the pressure tank or bladder inside be bad?
yes
(May 4, 2015) B. Murdock said:
When power is on, the well comes on and of, on and off, can hear water start to come into the system.
Can the pressure tank or bladder inside be bad?
yes
(May 22, 2014) donbates38 said:
can i still use my tank if the bladder is not working by just puting air in tank
Don
You'd think so but that won't work well nor long. The tank is not designed to have water outside its bladder - expect corrosion & leaks; and often the bladder fragments prevent water from properly entering or leaving the tank.
(Feb 19, 2014) Anonymous said:
The elbow pipe to a “Challenger series Diaphragm well tank” has a pin hole leak so I need to replace it. Do I need to make pressure adjustments either prior to or after replacing the pipe?
Thanks in advance for any advice you may give.
Reply: no
No, if your bladder type water tank is leaking water then it's almost certain that its internal bladder is torn or leaking too - you need to replace the tank entirely.
IF, on the other hand, if a water tank is one that does NOT use an internal bladder then a temporary repair is possible.
You can patch a pinhole leak using a special short lag screw and rubber or neoprene washer - assuming this is a bladderless pressure tank;
but beware that as tanks corrode from inside out the tank may be more rusted and closer to end of life than you think.
(Feb 6, 2014) Joe said:
I have a bladder tank with a likely ruptured air cell. Tried to drain water with no success. Any ideas as to another way to remove water from tank? It is a 20 gal tank so wrestling the thing won't be that bad if there is no other way to remove water.
(Feb 6, 2014) Joe S said:
Hello. I have a 20 gal bladder tank that has a ruptured air cell. I have tried to drain the tank with no luck. I assume the bladder is blocking the drain. Any other ideas as to how to remove the water since it won't drain the conventional way. I should be able to wrestle the tank as 20 gal won't be but soooo heavy. Although I hope there is another way.
Thanks in advance
(Aug 10, 2014) larry said:
my water tank won;t allow any water to enter it;s a 5 gallon bladder type tank
(Sept 8, 2014) Brian said:
I live off-the-grid, so electrical consumption is especially important to me.
The house came to us with a WellXTrol 87 gallon pressure tank and an additional Well Mate 85 gallon tank, which the previous owner had purchased to place in line with the other tank, adding capacity and thus decreasing the number / frequency of pumping cycles and the accomapanying start up surge from the pump. I recently connected it as he had suggested (the pressure switch is equidistant from each tank), but am experiencing a problem… two, actually.
1) The new tank is not filling. I'm getting only a few gallons in the new tank (as evidenced by the condensation on the exterior of both tanks). I'm guessing it has something to do with the pre-charge in the air sections not being equal, but I'm not sure of the best way to resolve this.
2) I'm getting a lot of air "pockets" coming through when the pump is running. I get the sense that, because it is late summer, that my well (45' with a Grundfos submersible) may not be able to handle the draw down and I actually am sucking air. What is the learned consensus?
Joe,
this one is indeed a bear; I've seen success by removing the schrader valve from the air pressure adjustment valve near the tank top;
Alternatively and presuming this tank model can take a replacement bladder, you'd need to remove the heavy tank and tip it over to access a bladder replacement port.
Larry
chances are the bladder has stuck to itself - a condition that might be repairable using a brief extra shot of pressure - OR the bladder is damaged and that won't help - OR there is debris clogging the tank entry or a closed valve &c.
Brian
If a water pressure tank is not filling I suspect either a collapsed tank bladder stuck to itself or debris-clogging at the tank inlet.
Air discharge from the water lines may indeed be due to lowered water level in the well and risks damage to the pump. You might want to install a pump pressure switch that includes a protection circuit for that problem.
(Sept 8, 2014) Brian said:
DanJoe,
Thank you for your response. I'm curious as to why one tank continues to fill as before, but an essentially brand new tank is only filling 1/10 to 1/8 full (my guess, based upon condensation lines on the outside of the tank) They share the inlet from the pump.
Is there a means to diagnose more assuredly? I did isolate the tanks (each having its own isolation valve), utilizing only the new tank, and the pressure gauge did some funny things. Having achieved the pump cut-out pressure, the switch shut off the pump
I then watched as the pressure slowly but steadily fell (no water being used throughout the house). I was thinking there was a large amount of air in the water section of the tank which was, itself, being compressed.
(Sept 8, 2014) Brian said:
PS - The new tank's inlet is tee'd off the line feeding the older tank. With both valves open, the older tank fills and the newer one only partially fills. I doubt there's a clog at issue. It almost seems as though air is displacing some of the available water space. I was wondering, since air will rise and the inlet to the tank is on the bottom, how one purges air from that part of the tank? Or is that even an issue?
Reply:
Brian
With NO water in the bladder-type tank, set its air pressure to 2 psi below the pump cut-in pressure. There should be a schrader valve (looks like a tire valve) near the top of the tank. In most but not all internal bladder tanks you're right the water is in the bladder and the air is in the tank.
(Jan 21, 2014) Anonymous said:
I have a 30 year old wx202 and I have also seen my empty tank pressure rising. I am surprised that so many professionals seem unable to explain this. As I did not have air coming out of the faucets,the problem could not be excess air. I could feel that the tank still had water in it after the drain valve stopped flowing.
Cracks in the diaphragm allowing water to pass above the diaphragm fully explain the problem.
On draining, the cracks close up like a check valve preventing escape of the trapped water. In order to reduce stress on the pump during the 2-3 weeks until a new well-extrol #WX255 81 gallon tank arrives, I drilled through the welded fitting on top and tapped it for a 1/8 in pipe plug. Lacking a 1/4 in bit long enough, I hammered a 3 ft long 3/16 rod through the hole.
I could feel it going through the diaphragm. I repeated this 6 times at different angles. Water flowed out of the tank for 20 min and the tank finally felt empty.
After precharging to 34 psi the 37/57 system worked properly for the first time in months except for multiple tiny leaks caused by this trapped water rusting its way through the steel near the diaphragm stop plate about 6 inches from the top of the tank. "JB Weld" has worked well on the worst leaks and it cures in a couple of hours with a heat lamp, allowing system restoration before others in the house wake up in the morning.
I plan to reduce the precharge pressure of the new tank to provide "supplemental drawdown". This will provide water during an unexpected loss of power or after the generator is shut down during a power failure. I will reduce the differential and increase the setting to 45/55 if the switch can handle it. The manufacture's sales rep of the tank agrees with this use as long as I stay in the 30/60 window for a 30 psi precharg with this tank. He did warn of reduced tank life if I stretch the diaphragm against the stop plate very often. All of the 22 in dia tanks have the same diaphragm and store the same 34 gallons of water, but have different air above
(Feb 25, 2012) Jim said:
When I was recharging my (properly drained) pressure tank through the valve on top, I happened to open the drain valve on the bottom that supplies water to the house and air came out. Also, I could see the pressure I was adding on the pressure guage that is located next to the outlet for supplying water to the house. Is this normal?
Jim: I'm also confused by what you describe. If water is coming out of the tank top how would air come out of the bottom through a water drain valve?
Sounds upside down, or a reversal of role of parts: there are some water tanks in which the air is in the bladder and the water is in the tank, but that's not common.
OR if you are really opening a drain at the bottom of your pressure tank and it's a bladder type tank then most-likely the bladder has torn and the air charge is escaping: it's time for a new tank or for replacing the tank internal bladder.
(July 17, 2012) Paul said:
I just had an Amtrol Well-X-Trol pressure tank get water logged (OK, so it's been in the making for a while). Short cycling was the giveway that something was a miss. But the point of this post is to suggest an effective way to drain the waterlogged tank.
First, make sure it's not under pressure. The bladder had collapsed and covered the outflow at the bottom of the tank. Pressing the valve at the top squirted water. Let the pressure out of the top of the tank. It may squirt water. Once there's no pressure in the top or the bottom, just water, time to go to work.
Drill a hole in the top of the tank with a bit that's large enough to get a sawsall blade in. Then, carefully cut a large hole in the top of the tank. In our Amtrol tank, there was a steel plate across the top with a hole in it. We stuck a hose down the hole into the "top" side of the bladder then started a vacuum and drained the tank.
No need to drill holes in it that would squirt water all over. Once the majority of the water is gone, it's much easier to move around. Just be careful of the sharp edges from the hole you cut!
Paul thank you for your interesting and unusual approach to draining a failed, waterlogged water pressure tank. Since the procedure you describe essentially destroys the tank, we are guessing that the purpose of the drill, cut, and drain procedure you described was to get water out of a ruined internal-bladder water pressure tank in order to make its removal easier.
And it's of course interesting to also report the observation of the underlying failiure in the tank - a (probably ruptured) internal tank bladder that collapsed, covering and sealing the tank inlet/outlet.
(Oct 18, 2012) Andrew newsome said:
Good morning, we have an external water tank that supplies non-potable water to a building here in Kandahar Afghanistan which has developed a leak.
On inspection of the internal of the tank it can be seen that there is an internal rubber type inner bladder and we would like to find a supplier that can provide to us a repair kit of some description and we were wondering if you can point us in the direction of any companies that do this type of bladder repair kit?
(Oct 30, 2012) Syguad@yahoo.com said:
I have hydro pneumatic pumptank for my house model LPT52 There is a black rubber valve that sticks out of the top, now it is dryrotted and cracked, can that be replaced. Syguado@yahoo.com
(Dec 3, 2012) John said:
We have a bladder water tank, WX-302, on our well and I recently turned off the water and drained the tank while installing a water softener. When I turned the water back on everything works ok except the bladder tank will not fill up with water, it's light and moves easily.
The pump turns on and off with the pressure switch and the pressure measured at several different points is 45 - 50 psi., No leaks and the only problem is the tank not filling up. Could it be the bladder in the tank collapsed when I drained the water or could sediment be blocking the inlet to the tank?
The pressure switch is located right at the inlet to the tank and seems to be working ok. The whole system is only about 5 years old.
Andrew,
If the water tank is leaking most likely the rust damage is more extensive than just the little pinholes you see. You might get by temporarily by removing pressure from the tank and trying an epoxy repair (to stop air leaks presuming water is inside the bladder) but the right repair is tank replacement.
Syquad
You are probably describing the air inlet/adjustment valve on your water pressure tank. You might obtain a replacement from an auto parts store, else from the manufacturer; it's basically a tire valve or a Schrader valve.
John,
Unfortunately sometimes the bladder sticks to itself on some pressure tanks.
You may be able to free it by going overpressure by 10-20 psi - just stay below the pressure limits of the tank or you risk bursting the tank and injuring someone.
Some pressure tanks are built to permit bladder replacement; else it's new tank time. Check yor water tank warranty.
Bob
Assuming the pump and wires are known good, has anyone checked the well itself for water flow rate?
See the Related Link. WELL FLOW RATE links near the op of this page. Kepis and the stock posted.
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