Operation of Drain Back Valves, Bleed-Back Systems & Snifter Valves for Well or Lake Pipe Freeze Protection & Air Volume Control:
This article explains how a drain-back valve works to let water drain from well or lake water piping exposed to freezing conditions.
The snifter valve operation is described, showing how this valve admits air into the piping so that water can drain at the drain back orifice leaving the pipe air-filled. The operation of the air volume control device used on these systems is explained: that device needs to vent excess air from the water pressure tank.
This article series describes snifter valves and drain-back valve , what they are, how they regulate air in a well water system, how they work with an air volume control,& how these components protect well piping against freezing. We describe how & where the snifter valve, drainback valve and air volume control are installed & what they look like.
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The bleed-back or drain-back system on a water piping system works automatically to allow air into a water supply system and to drain water out of piping between the water pressure tank or check valve and the bleed back or drain back valve opening found on the well or lake water piping in the well casing or at a level below the frost line.
By allowing air to enter the piping system it is protected from freezing and the proper air charge will be maintained in a water pressure tank that does not use an internal bladder.
This article series, beginning at SNIFTER & DRAIN BACK VALVES, describes each of these components, where they are located, how they work, and how they are installed, repaired or replaced.
Our well piping air volume control valve photographs below show an older and simple design for this well piping drain-back valve.
When the submersible well pump is off, pressure against the ball inside the valve is released, the ball can move away from the valve's little drain opening (photo below left), and water in the piping above the valve can drain out.
Water below the drain valve of course won't drain out since water can't jump.
[Click to enlarge any image]
At above right the (virtual) water pressure has pushed the bronze ball out against the little drain back valve opening, closing it.
Closing this opening while the pump is running makes sure that all of the water pressure is headed up to the building and none of it is peeing out of the drain back valve's opening.
OK so that was a poor choice of words. Below we show the well piping lifted out of the well to expose the tee into which the drain back valve was mounted.
Older well piping drain-back valves such as the unit shown here (removed from the well piping to permit close-up and internal views) used a captive bronze ball to open and close the vent opening and are reliable.
Newer well piping air vents use a flapper design or a spring-loaded design that Rasmussen reports are in their opinion less durable.
Other drain back valve models are closed by the velocity of water in the well piping system and open at velocities of about 5 gpm. These valves, such as the FloMatic drainback valve open (to drain the well piping) when water pressure in the piping falls below 10 psi.
In some installations the drainback valve may be located where it releases water from the well piping but does not send it back into the well itself.
The snifter valve works in concert with a drain-back valve and an air volume control valve as part of a triumvirate of air admittance and air volume control used with submersible well pumps installed in areas where shallow well piping is at risk of freezing.
When the water pump stops, unless the drain-back system includes a snifter valve to let air into the piping system, not much water would drain back out of the drain back valve that we described just above.
The snifter valve (photo at left), or in some literature a Brady air vent or a Dill valve, is mounted on an 1/8" tapping on the inlet side of the check valve. For bleed-back (or drain-back) systems, the check valve itself is installed at or close to the bottom of the water tank.
The snifter valve is a one-way air inlet vent. It includes a vented (or loose) air cap over a valve stem that incorporates a low-pressure spring designed to allow air to enter at the valve stem opening when a vacuum is created in the well piping on the well or lake side of the check valve.
When the well pump stops operating and water begins to flow back down the water piping and out the drain back valve orifice that creates sufficient vacuum (around 10 psi) to open the snifter valve to allow air to enter the water pipes.
Air entering the piping system at the snifter valve permits water to continue draining out the piping system at the drain back valve or bleed back valve until the pipe is empty of water.
Remember that air is entering the piping between the check valve inlet side and the drain back valve outlet or drain orifice. That is the section of piping that we want to drain for freeze protection.
So a well or lake water pipe that is not buried below the frost line can be protected by freezing: the pipe is simply emptied of water and filled with air at the end of each water pump on-cycle.
Back at the bladderless water pressure tank an automatic air volume control will release the excess air that is pushed into the tank from the empty water piping at the start of the next pump-on cycle.
Why doesn't the snifter valve also allow drain-back of all of the water in the pressure tank too?
The check valve is located at the point where the well piping enters the bottom of the water pressure tank. This valve keeps water from leaving the pressure tank in an attempt to head back into the well each time the pump stops.
Illustration above, adapted from
Also see
Watch out: when replacing the valve stem core in a Schrader valve that is serving as an air admittance valve on a drain-back system, be sure you obtain the proper low-pressure valve core or valve stem from your plumbing supplier.
The valve stem or core in this application has to open at around 2-3 psi whereas a typical tire valve opens at a higher pressure, perhaps 10-12 psi.
If you put the wrong type of valve core into your drainback system air snifter the system won't work and the water pressure tank will become waterlogged, leading to well pump short cycling.
Separate from an air admittance or snifter valve used on a drainback system, some water pressure tanks include a conventional Schrader Valve that operates in the higher pressure range.
That valve, used to manually adjust a water pressure tank's pre-charge pressure, may be present on a tank tee at the bottom of the water tank, or on the tank body, usually near the top of the tank.
Details are at WATER TANK AIR INLET VALVE.
Since you can't tell by looking at a Schrader valve which pressure-range core or valve stem has been installed, you may need help from your plumber or well driller. But here are two cases where we know that the water tank is going to be using a conventional, higher-pressure range Schrader valve:
...
Below you will find questions and answers previously posted on this page at its page bottom reader comment box.
Hello I am writing about the snifter valve. Your article on why are snifter valve air volume control systems used states that the high absorption of air into the system helps oxidize and thus reduce hydrogen sulfide or perhaps iron.
But in your last email to me you said it would not. So you have me confused. Thanks for your reply. JOE (Jan 22, 2014)
Reply: - unlikely that air injection alone can cure sulphur problems in the water supply
Thanks so much Joe, I will review these articles and fix that inconsistency.
Honestly, I am sure that I added the statement to which you refer while I was reviewing research about snifter valves, but in replying to your email I simply forgot about it.
You were right, I was mistaken. However we need some clarification:
A snifter valve is only used on deep wells that are operated by a submersible pump AND that feed water into an older-style bladderless expansion tank. The snifter valve, installed in the well piping lets air into the system at each pump on cycle.
A companion vent valve installed above ground, close to the pressure tank, or in some cases ON the pressure tank, vents excess air out of the tank to keep the tank's air charge at the proper level.
A water supply system that uses a "captive air" type water pressure tank that incorporates an internal bladder does not need this automatic injection of make-up air, so will not have a snifter valve.
In fact when a plumber converts a water supply system from bladderless-tank to internal-bladder tank, s/he needs to also pull the well piping and remove the old snifter valve if one was installed. That is what was going on in my photo series about snifter valves.
So if your water system uses a bladder type tank you wouldn't have a snifter valve installed.
Finally, and here is where we need to do more research, despite the claims of the snifter valve camp, I am doubtful that air injection ALONE will cure a serious sulphur odor in the water supply. More likely we'll need to install a treatment system such as a potassium permanganate "green sand as the plumbers call it" system or a chlorine injection system, combined with filtration, or some equivalent.
Do keep me posted, and thank you VERY much for helping me out with clarity and pointing out an inconsistency on this topic.
Reader Reports that Rotten egg smell came from water tank type
Read about rotten egg smell in wells with bladder tanks. I can attest to replacing an original galvanized tank with a bladder type causing a sulfur smell that was never there before. Terrible Had tank replaced with fiberglas tank with original type snifter system and No More Rotten Eggs - On 2020-10-01 by Tom P -
Reply by (mod) -
Tom.
Thank you, this an interesting rotten egg or sulphur odour smell source report.Changing the volume of water that's taken out of a drilled well, combined with the volume of the well's static head can alone have a significant impact on the sulphur odor in well water, as we explain
at SULPHUR ELIMINATOR at the WELL
See WELL DYNAMIC HEAD & STATIC HEAD DEFINITION to understand static head volume.
Also see our complete diagnostic and repair guide for rotten egg smell in water
at WATER ODOR TREATMENTS, CURES - SULPHUR
Why are there 3 Schrader Valves at my water tank & pump?
I have 3 schrader valves. Two before my check valve one after. From the pump side the first valve is low, the next one inch higher, then the check valve the another schrader. Any idea why it was designed this way? On 2020-09-20 by Dale -
Reply by Mod
Dale
Thanks, that's an interesting question. Can you post a photo of the set-up using the "add image" button (one pic per comment) - Then we can see and thus explain what you've got.
I installed a drain back valve on my well pipe but it's not working
I can't get this right. I pulled the pipe and installed a drain-back valve (the only one I could find on the internet).
It is installed about 5' above the water table, about 15' below the well seal. It has a very, very small hole in it. My Snifter valve doesn't seem to be opening when the pump is off, and as far as I can tell there doesn't seem to be much if any air going into the pipe.
Which means my air over water tank doesn't seem to be getting a shot of air to maintain the air level.
So, my tank seems to be headed for a waterlogged state. ....again. Is there a source for a drain-back valve that has a larger hole?
So more water falls out of the pipe and increases the "slug of air" my tank gets each cycle? I'm getting frustrated by this. Thanks for all advice and help. On 2020-06-26 by Anonymous -
Reply by (mod) -
Anon:
The drainback in the well works in concert with an air inlet or snifter valve that is above ground, usually near the pressure tank.
More photos and explanation are at SNIFTER & DRAIN BACK VALVES
I have not yet seen the basic information one would need to understand if this system is appropriate for and can work on your well.
Do I need a drain back valve?
I have an air over water pressure tank. I have one check valve above ground with a snifter valve installed. My submersible pump has a check valve built in. I also have one additional check valve installed approximately 25' above the pump. I do not have a drain back valve installed.
The minute the pump turns off the check valves shut and water stays in pipe right up to the above ground check valve. Would installing a drain back valve work? Does it let water drain out of the pipe. I don't understand how it works.
I'm in the Southeast hard freezes are very, very rare here. My pressure tank has an insulated cover. It's highly unlikely that it would ever have a problem with freezing. At least I've never had a problem with it over the last 18 years. Do I need a drain back valve? On 2020-06-06 by Anonymous -
Reply by (mod) -
Anon
I'm not sure I understand the whole situation, but in general,
IF your water pressure tank does not use an internal bladder
and
IF the air volume control for your water pressure tank uses an air inlet or snifter valve
THEN generally those valves are intended to work jointly with a drainback valve on the piping in the well.
The drainback, by letting water out of the upper well piping is letting air into the piping, and some of that air in turn is sent into the water pressure tank at the next pump on cycle.
Details of how that works are in the article on this page
Should there be a check valve on the main (before tank) if the bladderless tank was replaced with a bladder tank?
Should there be a check valve on the main (before tank) if the bladderless tank was replaced with a bladder tank? On 2020-03-04 by Anonymous -
Reply Mod: check valve, yes, but you may have another snifter valve component to remove - at the new bladder type pressure tank
Anon
1 or more (depending on total well pipe rise height) check valves are used on the well side of the water tank - one often right at the tank inlet as you'll see in some of our photos above.
Changing to an internal-bladder type pressure tank won't change that requirement. (Though in some well pump systems such as a shallow 1 line jet pump) the check valve may be built into the pump rather than added at the tank
Switched to bladder pressure tank: now about the old air inlet & snifter valve - Fixing Water Tank Trouble vs Drain Back Valve
If you have time I came across your site.my house is only 4 years old, for some reason the well installer used the old air over water type tank even though there are no reasons a bladder or diaphragm tank couldn’t have been used, he was older and said it’s what he always used.
I can’t get in touch with him any longer but we have 16 fixtures and a 25GPM 1HP submersible pump, the tank installed is only 44 gallons and because it’s air over water
we don’t even get 4 gallons of use out of it between cycles, everything I’ve read shows a 120 gallon tank of this type being proper.
Switching to the diaphragm or bladder tank will probably cost too much, our well pump is over 500’ deep and I’m sure will cost a lot to have it even partially pulled to block off the drain back valve I’m assuming is installed in it.
I was going to order and swap out to the 120 gallon air over water tank but in my research my current setup is confusing me,
it seems I should have a check valve and a snifter valve inside the basement close to the tank but I have neither,
I attached some pictures and was curious if you have any idea what my setup may be? He also used a Jacobus Maid O Mist #75 steam vent instead of the typical air control valve. Thank you in advance for any help you might be able to provide. On 2020-02-25 by Dwight -
Reply (mod) - water pressure tank losing air charge
Dwight
If you are only getting 4 gallons of water drawdown before the pump turns on then your water tank is waterlogged and simply needs a re-charge of its air.
Take a look at the options for adding air to the pressure tank found at
WATER TANK AIR, HOW TO ADDFollowup by Dwight
I’ve recharged it before, it’s always had the same output. I will probably just make an appointment with a local plumber to take a look at my setup and go from there. Thank you for the reply.
Reply (mod) - what if the drain-back and snifter valves are not working?
Dwight
It's normal for the air charge to dissipate in a bladder-less water pressure tank, but if the air charge is disappearing in days then there's a problem somewhere, perhaps a leak at the tank.More specifically:
A drain-back valve system, as you've read in this article series, will add air to a water pressure tank.
So if your tank is losing air and you've got a short draw-down cycle, either the drainback isn't working (the in-well valve or the air inlet valve aboveground or both could be faulty) or there's a leak at the water pressure tank itself.
Followup by Dwight
That’s what’s confusing me, I don’t even see what would be used as a snifter valve inside my house.
The only valve I have is the Schrader valve located on the “Maid O Mist” steam valve they used as the air control valve but I don’t see how that would let air into the line from the well.
The black well pipe comes thru the wall and goes directly to a 90 degree brass fitting on the tank... there’s no snifter, check valve etc.
That steam valve lets out excess air every time the pump runs.
On 2020-02-27 - by (mod) -
Quite so, Dwight.
I wondered what on earth a float vent was doing on a water system. That Maid O Mist is intended to release or purge air from a hot water heating system (not steam).
But that probably tells us something: that there was a long history of trouble with air in the water supply system of this building.
The problem is perhaps one of the various reasons given at AIR DISCHARGE at FAUCETS, FIXTURES https://inspectapedia.com/water/Air_Discharge_at_Faucet.php
Please take a look at that article and let me know what you think or find.Reply (mod) -
Dwight
A couple of extremely basic diagnostics:
If the pump is capable of reaching the pressure control switch CUT OFF pressure (typically 40 or 50 psi) then I don't suspect a problem with the pump itself.
If then you have a typical residential pressure tank you ought to see 30 seconds or longer of draw down when running one fixture, or certainly 15-25 gallons of water, before the pump turns on.
If the pump turns on after just 3-4 gallons of water have been drawn then the most-likely conditions are
- there is a normal sized pressure tank but it's waterlogged (lost its air charge)
- there is a tiny pressure tank or none (some systems use a pressure-sensitive pump and no tank)
- The pressure control gap between CUT-IN and CUT OUT pressures are not properly set; typically we cut-in at 20 or 30 PSI and cut out at 40 or 50 psi.
- or something else I've forgotten
A galvanized pressure tank like the one in your photos doesn't use an internal bladder and needs to keep an air charge - when the pump turns off the water ought to be roughly 2/3 from the top of the tank.
That Maid-o-Mist float valve on your pressure tank is very unusual and tells me there was probably a history of excess air being sent up from the well into the tank (and without that valve, out at fixtures). That's a different problem adding confusion to the story.
But the valve may also be purging more air from the tank than it should - leaving the tank sometimes waterlogged.Followup by Dwight
That’s what’s odd, other than the apparent lack of draw down volume everything else seems to function fine.
I don’t have any issue with air discharge at fixtures, the tank gauge doesn’t leak down if there’s no current water usage. That’s why I was just looking at increasing the tank size, but then my inability to find any installation examples anywhere that even remotely resembled this setup threw me off.
I’m probably going to have to step away from my usual want to DIY and pay someone local to try and see if they can make sense of it I guess. I don’t want to keep taking up your time but I do appreciate you going back and forth with me trying to figure it out.
Seems like it would’ve been much simpler if they’d installed a modern style tank from the start to me. I guess I have some type of odd setup someone came up with themselves that by some miracle functions somewhat correctly.
I’m just stumped on how the drain back is working at all without #1 an air admittance valve of some kind at the tank end and #2 how the water isn’t draining from the tank back into the line since there’s no check valve present.I think before I do anything I’ll order a normal air control valve and get rid of that Maid-O-Mist and see what that does. They installed a 40/60 pressure switch, it seems set correctly... cuts in 2psi below 40 at 38 and fills to 60 and stops.
One last question, do you have any idea why I wouldn’t have a check valve and snifter valve or some other type of air admittance device? Are those things I should look into adding as well or is there any other type of setup you can imagine for a galvanized tank that wouldn’t have those two items?
Thank you again for your time on this.Reply (mod) -
Your plan sounds right.
The underlying issue you describe sounds like a waterlogged tank - lacking proper air charge.
The tank air pre-charge should be 2 psi below the CUT-IN pressure on the pressure control. In the ARTICLE INDEX you can read how to set the pressure tank air charge properly and how to add air to the tank if it's needed.
https://inspectapedia.com/water/Snifter_Valve.php describes why and where snifter valves and drainback valves are used.
How to stop air discharge at fixtures due to old snifter valve
I've replaced galvenized pressure tank with a bladder tank. There is a check valve with a snifter valve and a riser pipe that goes to the pressure switch. I'm getting air into the water supply that feeds the house.
After doing some research I think the problem is that the snifter valve is sucking air and it should be taken completely out of the system and the hole in the check vavle body should be plugged(to not allow any air in).
If that's correct, then can I simply wrench out the snifter valve and install a plug or do I need to drain the pressure tank or do anything else prior to taking out the snifter.
The tank is inside so I don't want to flood the room to find out I did something wrong. Thank you in advance. I've attached a picture. On 2020-02-11 by Alan -
Reply by (mod)
That's correct, Alan. You will need to remove the sniffer valve itself or drain back valve. That's actually in the well on the well piping above the water line as well as removing the air inlet valve near the pressure tank.
Otherwise the drain back valve in the willow will continue to admit excess air into your system at the end of each pump cycle.
Followup by Alan
Doing anything with the well below ground is not a DIY for myself, so all I can really do is mess with the above ground stuff at this time.
Do I need to do anything prior to removing the snifter valve? Can I take it out safely wihtout any draining the tank, or anything else? I don't want to flood the room the tank is in if water is going to start spewing out of the hole. Thank you.
Reply by (mod) - just cap off the air inlet valve and defer removing the drainback valve in the well?
Alan
Yes, I understand completely. For one thing. Someone needs to open the will head and actually pull the will piping in order to remove that drain back valve. On the other hand, if we don't do that the air problem will continue. It's not going to destroy your system, but it will mean that you'll continue to get are discharged at your fixtures and your pressure tank will not work just as it should.
About the above-ground snifter valve. You could try simply screwing a plastic cap over the valve. So that are can't get in. You wouldn't even need to remove the assembly. That's a great experiment because it cost about $0.50.Followup by Alan
Ok, gotcha. I borrowed a valve stem cap off of a bike and screwed it onto the snifter valve which has seemed to reduce(not eliminate) the air introduction issue, but I wasn't sure if that would create an air tight seal, so I was going to plug the hole to make sure it was air tight. I have a whole house water filter attached to the supply prior to its entry into the house.
That housing has a button to relieve pressure prior to a filter change. I've been relieving(burping) the air by pressing that button until water starts to come out of the housing.
I guess I should have just replaced the galvenized tank with another galvenized tank so I wouldn't have these issues, but I didn't do any research ahead of time, now I wish I did. This is my first time to have a well, so I'm learning as I go. Thanks you much for your reply.
Reply by (mod) - success capping off a no-longer-needed air inlet valve or snifter valve
Nah. It's certainly a common practice to replace an old bladderless galvanized tank with an internal bladder tank.
Don't trouble yourself too much about this. It'll get resolved.
Meanwhile you can simply put a little bit of Teflon paste or even Vaseline in that valve stem cap and screw it back on to the air inlet valve to see if that gives you a better seal. Give it some time.
Water is spewing out of the snifer air valve when the well pump kicks on.
WAter is spewing out of the snifer air valve when the well pump kicks on. Should I just replace this valve stem to solve this issue? On 2019-12-01 by Mike -
Reply by (mod) - Snifter-Valve-Abandonment-383-Alans.jpg
Mike
Yes, it sounds as if the snifter valve needs to be replaced. You could perhaps just replace the valve stem core.Watch out: However be sure to get the correct one for a snifter valve. If you use a simple automobile Tire valve stem core it will not open at the correct pressure to allow the snifter valve to admit air in at the end of a pump cycle.
I recently had a new well installed, drilled w/ a submergible pump. a internal bladder tank was installed .
I was concerned about the water in the tank and water line freezing in the winter , so a sniffer valve was installed on the the check valve.
I was told when shutting the system down for the winter, to open and drain the water tank, and to open the green valve cap on the sniffer/check valve to introduce sir to the system , that would allow the water in the line to drain back into the well.
Will this advise work? is their any problem with the sniffer valve installed with an internal bladder water tank? thank You (Oct 13, 2014) Ray
Reply by Mod
Yes there's a possibility that the advice you were given will work, Ray. But just removing a valve cap won't do it. That cap is supposed to be loose and able to admit air at all times. You shouldn't have to open the snifter valve (found on a check valve usually mounted at the bottom of the water pressure tank) as it should open to admit air on its own - at the end of a pump-on cycle.
If your snifter valve is not working it probably needs a replacement. If you're replacing just the valve stem core don't buy one at your auto parts store - those schrader valves and valve cores operate at different (higher) pressure ranges and are not designed for this application.
...
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