Thermocouple diagnostic FAQs for heating appliances:

Questions & answers on how to diagnose & repair or replace a bad thermocouple or thermopile.

This article series describes thermocouples, safety devices used on gas fired heating equipment.

Thermocouples: Definition & Uses in Gas Fired Heating Equipment

These questions & answers about diagnosing, fixing or replacing thermocouples on building heating equipment were posted originally

at THERMOCOUPLE REPAIR / REPLACEMENT.

Illustrated here: a typical gas fireplace thermocouple assembly showing its principal components. This particular unit is a model 70K0 Thermocouple.

What do I do if I put in a new thermocouple but can't keep the pilot lit.

I just replaced the thermocouple on nat gas boiler but still can't keep pilot flame burning.

I think the flame is strong and blue enough but flame goes out when the knob is released. what prevents the pilot from holding? (Oct 2, 2015) bill jackson

I have replaced the thermocouple in my gas wall heater but the pilot is not staying on. Is any adjustments at the valves? (Jan 4, 2015) Anonymous

Reply: 6 things to check if your gas pilot light won't stay lit

I've had this trouble too: check for a thermocouple that is not properly installed: e.g.

1. Are you holding the ignite control down to keep the pilot flame going long enough to warm the thermocouple? Hold the ignite control to keep the flame going for at least 30 seconds.
2. If when you release the control from the "ignite" position if the flame goes out, then check for an improperly-seated thermocouple at the gas valve end.
3. Next check that the sensor is mounted well within the flame. - if the thermocouple sensor not positioned properly in the flame it won't sense the flame
4. Check that the thermocouple's indicating end is fully secured into the gas valve.
5. Also if you nicked or damaged the thermocouple tubing it might be dysfunctional.
6. A less likely problem is a failed gas control valve.

 

Which way do I turn the screw to connect the thermocouple tube to the gas valve?

What type of female thread is the thermopile / thermocouple connection on a gas valve? On 2017-11-11 by Glen

You're saying - Turn the screw clockwise to loosen a right-hand-threaded connector such as this one < no .anticlockwise to loosen a right handed nut, clockwise on a left handed like mine has. On 2016-08-18 by Konrad

Reply by (mod) thermocouple connector to gas valve is reverse-threaded!

It's so that most thermocouples are reverse-threaded.

What's the brand you're using? Certainly thermocouples are a rather standard part used on many different gas controls, all of which are likely to use the same thread direction.

See THERMOCOUPLE INSTALLATION

Explanations for gas flame failure after installing a new thermocouple

John

Here are some possible explanations for gas flame failure after installing a new thermocouple

1. the end of the thermocouple that attaches to the gas valve is not properly seated or not tightened

2. the flame sensor is not adequately located in the body of the flame

3. the replacement thermocouple was defective or was damaged (kinked line) during installation

4. there is a different problem with the gas valve or gas pressure

 

Why does the thermocouple on our boiler keep failing?

Dear Inspectopians:

We have a 1907 rowhouse with a basement gas boiler fueling hot water radiators on the two floors above.

The boiler, a Utica Model 4GB-100, keeps blowing the thermocouple that senses the gas flame (one or two each heating season for the past six or seven years).

Now that we know what to expect, we don't mind replacing the dratted things periodically, but we wonder if this signals something we should be worried about. The long-term future of the heating system is not a big issue, since we likely will not own the house much longer. Our concern involves the living creatures inside it.

We don't mind paying you a reasonable fee for guidance/suggestions. But we're hoping you don't tell us to call in a local professional.

If the experiences of our neighbors are any indication, no one in our area wants to deal with these old "inefficient" systems, only to sell us a brand new one (preferably one that requires moving the boiler to the opposite end of the basement, thus requiring lots of pipes to be relocated).

We appreciate any advice or information you can supply. If you need more information, please don't hesitate to write or holler at us. - K.L. 10/23/2013 Oh, and we LOVE InspectAPedia.

Reply: things to check for repeat failures of a thermocouple or thermopile

A bit of detail might help me help you. Here are some diagnostic questions: Over what time have how many thermocouples failed? Give me a rough calendar.

Can you tell me the brand and part number you've installed?

Can you give me some sharp photos of the heating system - both in macro that I can see the heater's general environment and close-up of the control installation? I particularly want to see a photo of the position of the thermocouple sensor in the actual gas flame. Have you bought all of the replacement parts at the same place?

Did you see anything interesting on the old thermocouples like a kink, sharp bend, mechanical damage?

And no, there is no fee for my consulting as long as it doesn't become too consuming for me. Utica gas boiler information for your product series is at http://www.uticaboilers.com/products_gasboilers_mgb.asp

Take a look at the installation instructions at THERMOCOUPLE REPAIR / REPLACEMENT.

Also take a look at page 27 in this Utica MBG gas boiler installation manual http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/2783.pdf

at the pilot flame diagnostic drawing where you will see that placement of the thermocouple properly in the flame is important: let's also be sure that the problem is the thermocouple and not its position or the pilot flame.

 

Why does the heater cut off when the flame touches the thermocouple?

Pilot flame does not touch thermocouple all the time. When the flame does not touch the thermocouple the heater cuts off. Why does it do this? (Oct 15, 2015) Frank Guttery

Reply:

This sounds backwards to me; I suspect a defective thermocouple.

 

I replaced the thermocouple but can't keep the pilot flame lit

Just replaced pilot/thermocouple assembly on my reliance 606 water heater and pilot still blows out? 2015/11/09 John

Reply:

John

If you're sure the thermocouple is a good one (I sometimes try a second one) then check

- that the sensor is properly positioned in the flame

- that the flame is blue, healthy looking, and covers the sensor

- that the other end of the thermocouple is properly seated in the screw-in connector on the gas control

- that the thermocouple line is not nicked or kinked

John said:
I checked all of your suggestions to fix this thing. The pilot stays on then I turn the valve to on then it starts the heating cycle but when its done heating the pilot still goes out. Is there a separate thermopile generator?

Reply:

Not usually on gas water heaters; I suspect the thermocouple is heating up and that is causing movement or change that's fouling things up. When the unit is still hot if you can't re-light the burner that may confirm.

John said:
I disconnected the thermocouple and pilot from the vavle and positioned the 2 so they're straight out of the grommet about 3/4 of an inch. Then recoiled the excess at the bottom of the valve and reconnected em. It seems to have worked. Thanx Daniel

Reply:

Thanks for the follow-up john. I've occasionally had trouble with a thermocouple that seemed connected to the control but wasn't perfectly seated. Perhaps straightening out the tubing at the control end and re-connecting was what solved the trouble. I'll be sure to emphasize that for other readers.

Gas water heater pilot light won't stay on

My water heater, was working fine, but it just went off, pilot lights but don't stay on, it's the hole water heater or just the thermocouple? On 2018-10-07 by Eddie Q

Reply by (mod) -

I wouldn't start by assuming the problem requires a water heater replacement. It could be a problem of lack of fuel or a bad thermocouple.

See THERMOCOUPLE REPAIR / REPLACEMENT

 

Thetford fridge gas burner won't stay lit

I have a Thetford fridge in my caravan. When on gas it lights ok with the spark but goes out after 15 seconds. It is a combined sparker/ thermocouple device just connected with wires .
Any advice please On 2021-05-13 by DAVID PIMBLETT

Reply by (mod) -

@DAVID PIMBLETT,

Check that the thermocouple is properly placed in the flame, that the flame height is normal, that the other end of the thermocouple is snug, and if there's nothing there, either look through the diagnostics at THERMOCOUPLE REPAIR / REPLACEMENT

or just try replacing the part.

Let me know if that works for you and if not we'll be glad to continue troubleshooting.

Thermocouple was replaced but flame lowers and then goes out

I put in a new thermocouple because when the pilot was lit and I turned it went out.

Now it worked good for about 15 minutes then acted like it ran out off gas (its not) as the flames got lower and went out.
What would cause that? I also broke the bleeder flat bar off, would that cause it? - On 2017-12-30 by TonyT

After 15 minutes of my gas furnace being completely on and functuning perfect, the fireplace turns off by itself .why On 2017-10-27 by Claudia

Reply by (mod) - why does the gas fireplace or heater turn itself off soon after it's lit

Claudia and Tony:

I don't know, although the situation you described could be unsafe. I don't have enough information to do more than make a wild guess. Perhaps when your heating system is running it's use of combustion air or issues of return air is making the fireplace starved for combustion air.

Then if your fireplace has a safety device that detects improper combustion it could be shutting down.

Lowering flame and "going out" could be an oxygen depletion sensor thinks the system is unsafe.

Or your thermocouple sensor is not properly located within the flame.

Also check that the other end of the thermocouple tube is fully screwed in to the gas valve.

Want Help fixing a Gazco Studio 22 Gas Fire

I'm desperately in need of advice concerning my Gazco Studio 22 gas fire. By the bottle manifold, there's a 'normally open' manual reset gas solenoid safety valve fitted. This valve shuts off the gas supply when electricity is sent to it in an emergency situation, and conversely, opens again when the electric is off.

My question is this: if the electricity in the house fails, how would the solenoid work?

Surely a 'normally closed' version would be correct (so when electricity fails, the supply is turned off)? All advice would be greatly appreciated. (Aug 27, 2017) K. Godard

Reply:

KG

Most gas fire pilot or thermocouple controls are designed to "fail safe" - that is, the thermocouple keeps the gas valve open ONLY when it is sensing the heat from an adequate gas flame. The system operates on a system that generally doesn't require an external electrical power source.

Indeed take a look at the gas fireplace thermocouple and pilot flame assembly shown above on this page: you'll see that there are no electrical wires involved in the pilot flame sensor. (There will be an electrical wire, not shown, that connects between a mechanical pushbutton and the piezoelectric gas igniter - a device used only for initial flame ignition.

At the Gazco (Stovax) website the company provides a product description for the Studio 22 Gas Fire that you mentioned - it is sold in several models.

Unfortunately ALL of the Gazco Stovax Gas Fire 22 links to supporting documentation given at their website if you follow the company's obvious links to technical support will result in page not found errors. Below I do include PDF copies of Stovax Studio Gas Fires that I could locate elsewhere including a manual for the Gazco Studio conventional flue fire.

You can contact Gasco - Stovax directly for technical support in Devon:

Gazco , Osprey Road , Sowton Industrial Estate, Exeter, Devon EX2 7JG UK
Customer Services: +44 (0)1392 261900
Technical Enquiries: +44 (0)1392 261950
Website: http://www.stovax.com/stove-fire/studio-gas-fires/studio-22-gas-fires/

• GAZCO STUDIO Conventional Flue MANUAL [PDF] (2008) For use in GB, IE (Great Britain and Eire) COVERING THE FOLLOWING MODEL: Studio 1 conventional flue : 8700CFCHEC 8701CFCHEC
  P8700CFCHEC P8701CFCHEC
• GAZCO STUDIO 2 Balanced Flue MANUAL [PDF] (2015) For use in Australia covering these models: Natural Gas #8701BFLECAU & Propane Gas #P8701BFLECAU
• GAZCO Stockton 5 Conventional Flue Coal Effect Stove [PDF]
• STOVAX Studio Inset Convector Cassette MANUAL [PDF] For use in GB & IE (Great Britain & Republic of Ireland). This edition incorporates PM400 Issue 4 for the purposes of installation in Smoke Control Areas

 

Where should I mount the thermal coupler sensor if there is no bracket ?

Where should I mount the thermal coupler sensor if there is no bracket on the replacement pan/burner. This is a propane outdoor fire pit. There is no pilot flame or igniter
Thanks On 2017-10-11 by Larry

by (mod) - for safety, check the manual first

Larry,

I would not proceed before naming the brand and model of the fire pit / burner, then finding a copy of its installation and operation manual. A do-it-yourself thermocouple mount bracket, location, and installation risks being unsafe.

by Larry

Thanks for the reply. The pit, hoses, valves, coupler are Bond Manufacturing model Somersville.

The replacement burner ring and pan are Onlyfire, LLC. 18x18 Square Stainless Steel which came via Amazon without an aparaent site to mount the sensor.

There is no bracket. Can I mount it so that the sensor is in the flame coming out of the burner somewhere?

Reply by (mod) - replacement gas pilot and thermocouple assembly for a Bond Somersville series fire table

Larry

I looked at Bond's website for a PDF installation manual for any of the Bond Somersville series fire tables - with no success.

However some vendors such as Lowes do provide the I&O Manual for the Bond Somersville fire table series, such as this example: BOND SOMERSVILLE FIRE TABLE I&O MANUAL [PDF]

There you'll see a hint of presence of the thermocouple and bracket and igniter but no detailed parts explosion. Perhaps because the company is itself buying the burner assembly from a third party vendor.

and this more-detailed parts explosion in a similar manual from Home Depot, also for a Bond heater product: BOND FIREPIT 221820 MANUAL [PDF]

This Bond I&O Manual, in tiny illustrations, shows that the thermocouple and igniter are mounted to the bottom of a pan under the burner itself - this HAS to be model-specific.

Among the company's replacement parts are both bare thermocouples and thermocouple assemblies that include the necessary mounting bracket.

An example is illustrated ABOVE on THIS PAGE

You'll see that the bracket is absolutely necessary to hold the thermocouple, piezoelectric igniter, and the gas pilot in the right position with respect to one another.

I looked at illustrations for Onlyfire gas burners for firepits at several vendors and saw no details about nor even the presence of igniters and thermosouples. Perhaps we're supposed to just turn on the gas and use a match, with no thermocouple safety device.

In my OPINION it is unconscionable for a third party vendor to sell a replacement burner without making clear what parts are needed for safe, proper operation.

You might try contacting the Bond Manufacturing company at

• Bond Manufacturing, 1700 West 4th Street, Antioch, CA 94509 USA, Tel: 1-866-771-BOND (2663)

Procedure for fixing a Lennox gas log fireplace with an electronic ignition

I have a Lennox gas log fireplace with an electronic ignition. The fireplace flame lights and burns for an hour, then the flame goes out.

The pilot light stays lit. It takes another hour before the fireplace will light again, and it stays lit for another hour. I've by passed the wall switch, so I know the switch and temperature control are not the problem. I'm baffled and need your help. Thanks in advance! On 2017-03-05 by Karl

Reply by mod

I'm not sure what's wrong, Karl, perhaps a bad regulator or dirty gas orifices, but a common cause would be a bad thermocouple or flame sensor.

by Mod - fireplace thermocouple sensor diagnosis

Sounds as if your heater may be producing dangerous or even fatal carbon monoxide, shutting itself off.

Be sure you have working CO detectors properly located and tested.

Review the heater manual to see if it has a CO safety feature.

Also check combustion air adequacy.

by Karl

Thanks - I pulled the glass today, cleaned the pilot assembly including the thermocouple and checked all connections.

I cleaned and reinstalled the glass. The fireplace started and ran for roughly an hour, then the fire went out. The pilot remains lit, even after the fire extinguishes.

I can turn the pilot off at the switch. If I try to restart the fireplace the electronic ignitor starts the pilot light, but the main flame will not ignite.

If I wait until the unit cools, the fireplace will light up again.

I guess I could replace the entire pilot assembly, and see if that fixes the problem. It's strange that the pilot light stays on, when the main flame goes out. It seems to me that if the thermocouple was bad, the main flame and pilot would extinguush.

I sanded the thermopile to fix my gas fireplace - pilot won't stay lit

I have a natural gas fireplace (with local wall switch and remote control receiver circuit). It just quick working suddenly, pilot self extinguished etc. I have ensured that the remote receiver has good batteries. Like a lot of other folks, the pilot will not stay lit.

I removed the thermopile and sanded lightly to make sure corrosion or carbon buildup was not preventing operation. I next replaced the thermopile with an identical one (at least, looked identical to me).

Well, the pi.ot still goes off as soon as I release the pilot switch. I removed the pilot valve cover to expose the coil and cannot see anything obviously wrong. The pilot valve is a Robertshaw brand with 0% turndown (2001 vintage) . Got any ideas/advice? My next move is to simply replace the pilot valve assembly. then probably call a pro? On 2017-02-04 by Bob Regan

Reply by (mod): Sanding won't fix a failed thermopile, buy a new one

Sanding won't fix a failed thermopile, but replacement would work IF

1. that was the problem and

2. the new unit was fully seated and its connector screwed in fully at the control-end of the device.

I suspect there's still a problem either with the thermocouple connections or with its placement (not in the flame).

How do I diagnose & fix millivolt/pilot flame controlled Robertshaw gas valve

I have a wall furnace with a millivolt/pilot flame controlled Robert Shaw gas valve, which has been working just fine as this heating season began this year. A few days ago it started not consistently responding to changes to the thermostat.

When I would manually raise the temp settings, something I do all the time, the read out on the thermosdtat would say "heat on" but the gas would not turn on.

I could very lightly tap the control valve and the buner would ignight and the heater would run until the set room temp was reached.

Once the burner cut off it was hit or miss as to whether it would cut on again...without tapping the valve.

I replaced the valve yesterday and the heater ran for several cycles. But this morning, when I over-rode the temp setting (battery operated programable thermostat) the burner failed to turn on.

A light tap to the valve precipitated ignition and the burner ran until the set temp was reached. As the room temp has dropped, the heater has faild again to ignite. The pilot/ hermocouple control was replaced about 5 years ago. Ther previous unit lasted 20 years.

I would like to know what to trouble shoot rather than replacing another part in a trial and error method. On 2016-12-28 by bafrank

by (mod)

When you replaced the valve did you replace the thermocouple? If not I would do so.

Be sure you also have working and properly located carbon monoxide detectors as a malfunctioning gas heater can be fatal.

Continuous sparking then burns out the igniter at our fireplace

Michael S. said:
I have a wood burning fireplace with fake logs which my wife likes to use every day. Years ago I had a contractor install this ignitor system so she did not have to use a match every day:

It worked fine for years, but then the ignitor/sensor went bad, so I bought this one

Lately I have had to replace this ignitor/sensor every few months, which clearly isn't right since they are supposed to last many many years.

What ends up happening every time is that the ignitor/sensor sparks, the pilot immediately lights, and the ignitor/sensor continues to spark and not open the gas line even though the tip is definitely in the pilot flame.

The tip turns red from the heat of the flame, and it keeps sparking as if it cannot sense the flame of the pilot.

Even if I use a lighter to put an additional flame on the sensor, it still keeps sparking in the pilot flame.

I have tried cleaning the tip which never seems to fix it, so I end up just replacing it.

This last one that I replaced did not even work for a week, so obviously I am using the wrong ignitor/sensor, or the wrong size orifice, right? What should I do so that this stays working for years, not days or months? On 2016-01-16 by Michael S.

by (mod) - check the wiring for a bad or inadvertent ground

Michael,

I suspect the installation is incorrect or a control board is bad. The continuous sparking then burns out the igniter. A grounded is shorted of wet igniter wire can also cause this problem

In my natural gas fireplace, the pilot stays on fine, but the main flames cycle on and off at random.

In my natural gas fireplace, the pilot stays on fine, but the main flames cycle on and off at random. Are there two thermocouples for that? Othewise, what's your wisdom on that?
Thanks On 2015-11-29 by hoyt-stearns@cox.net

Reply by (mod)

Watch out: I don't know what brand and model fireplace you have - that'd help.

But generally it sounds as if you're describing a very dangerous situation, risking fatal aspyxiation or an explosion or fire.

I would shut off the gas to the fireplace and leave it off until you've had a professional repair or replace its control or regulator or valve - or until another problem such as a gas leak is found.

...

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Continue reading at THERMOCOUPLE REPAIR / REPLACEMENT - topic home, or select a topic from the closely-related articles below, or see the complete ARTICLE INDEX.

Or see these

Recommended Articles

• GAS IGNITER DIAGNOSIS & REPAIR
• THERMOCOUPLE REPAIR / REPLACEMENT
• THERMOCOUPLE SAFETY
• THERMOCOUPLE LOCATION
• THERMOPILE vs THERMOCOUPLE
• THERMOCOUPLE INSTALLATION
• THERMOCOUPLE DIAGNOSIS
• THERMOCOUPLE TYPES
• ZONE VALVES, HEATING

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